I do think it strengthens the relationship. The LORD disciplines those he loves and I rejoice in and cherish that!

Discipline is a relationship at work. Often times I find that if a child is disobeying it is a reflection of something I am not being faithful in. This doesn’t mean that the disobedience is ignored, on the contrary. However, there are times I find myself apologizing for my behavior as well.
Every action has a consequence…even for mommies. And I think the heart is won when they see that the rules apply to us as well.
And no, I am not advocating blurred order here…just humility.

(Also, my post might not have translated well – I think in the UK the terms smack and spank are used pretty interchangeably. I mean a swat on a covered bottom or hand – but often in my case, even if the action is not extreme, the spirit behind it is. Will continue to strive.)

I’m very hesitant to do anything but point you to Scripture on this issue. I agree that physically punishing your child in anger is sinful and is something to be abhorred and avoided.

God says,

He who withholds his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

. As a Christian I am not at liberty to encourage you to violate God’s Word.

As a side note, I do not believe that ‘smacking’ your child is Biblical discipline.

I pray that God will give you wisdom and strength as you raise your children for His honor and glory.

However, my issue relates to my temper, my outbursts and lack of self-control. Partly because of the way I was raised (as an adult my dad apologised for his spanking in anger) – I always thought that I was one of those ‘I was spanked and it did me no harm’ kind of people, but now I wonder. I only ever smack my oldest child in anger and frustration – if I am calm I always naturally use a different (hopefully no less effective) form of discipline.

Because of the verse “In your anger, do not sin”, I have removed smacking from my discipline repetoire (if I tell myself it is not right for me to do it, I am less likely to resort to it while angry – does that make sense?). I guess my question is – do you think this is right? I wonder if I should be praying to ask God to help me use smacking wisely, or if, because of my sinful nature and temper, it is ok to focus on other forms of discipline? I can already see my anger and temper in my son, and it breaks my heart.

I am getting so much out of your blog, and would love to know what you think. Thank you

I bought this from Doorposts Publishing, which I highly recommend for a variety of resources in how to teach/train our children using God’s Word.

mama of 13

As the mama of 13 children (ages 8, 8, 9, 11, 13, 13, 16, 19, 21, 21, 23, 24, 25,) I fully agree with Kimberly on this.

Something that the Lord showed me many years ago was:

Rules without Relationships equals Rebellion

That is the key. When there is precious relationship with the child, than a spanking (done without anger) can be used to train the child, without provoking the child to anger.

Yes … my children were spanked. But … I have their hearts. My goal was not to be the “best friend” of my children, my goal (along with my husband) was to train up our children in the instruction and admonition of the Lord. As this was done, we each developed beautiful friendships. My eldest daughter (24) is my dearest friend; and I am hers. (We live 9 hours apart, but we are meeting 1/2 way this weekend to scrapbook together for 3 days.)

I have seen MANY families who have the “rules” down pat … but they don’t have the relationships, they haven’t won their children’s hearts. In the later teen years or young adult years, I have seen so many of those children rebel … and families hearts be torn apart.

If other readers are interested in seeing a family that is similar to Kimberly’s in many ways … but has already walked 6 of our 13 children to adulthood, I hope you’ll check out my blog. While many people questioned our parenting when we had a house full of young ones (we were much more “strict” than others at our church) they now look at us and wonder “How?” We get asked all the time, “How did you raise up so many missionaries?” But … we didn’t set out to raise up missionaries, we set out to raise up children who would love and serve the Lord. In doing that, they have searched God’s will for their lives, and 4 of our 6 young adults have traveled the world in service to Him.

Keep up the good work, Kimberly!

mama of 13

However, I believe it is important to point out that many Christians (both now and through Church history) interpret the passages being discussed as ones instructing parents to carefully discipline and disciple their children. However, these taking-the-Bible-seriously Christians reject that Biblical discipline requires using a hand or implement to spank a child on the bottom/thigh.

It is commonly accepted within the US Christianity that “rod” is translated into the application of how we spank in our subculture. A more honest exegesis of the rod verses, if I were to summarize, would be that the Bible neither directs nor forbids spanking.

And, for our family, careful discipline and discipleship which points our children to their need for the Gospel does not include spanking.

Again, I do not wish to debate or to cause offense to other Christian mothers — just present the idea that perhaps the ideas about Christian spanking are not as Biblical as many of us have assumed.

You make a few points here that I think are worth addressing.

1. You say that, “we must look at the Old Testament through the prism of the New Testament”.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. Our family certainly believes that both the OT and NT are vital for understanding the whole of God’s will. We believe that Scripture that is clear should always be used to interpret Scripture that is unclear. And we believe that often the New Testament expands our understanding of the Old Testament.

We certainly do NOT believe that the New Testament does away or abolishes the Old Testament.

2. You say that because Christ called Peter Satan and Peter attempted violence (in Gethsemane) that this is a clear condemnation of violence even when that violence is dressed up as love.

Once again, I urge to go to the scriptures themselves and not man’s interpretation. These passages have been taken out of context.

In Matt. 16:23 and Mark 8:33 (they are parallel passages relating the same event) Christ is revealing to His disciples that He will suffer and die and Peter takes him aside and says,

Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee

at this point Christ says,

Get thee behind me Satan

. Peter is not attempting, nor has he attempted any violence and it is here that Christ calls Peter Satan.

Christ’s reaction to Peter’s violence in the garden of Gethsemane is quite different. This story is related to us in Matthew 26:51, Mark 14:47 and Luke 22:50. In both Mark and Luke, there is no rebuke to Peter recorded. In Matthew Christ says,

Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?

You’ve combined two separate passages of scripture and come to a conclusion that a simple reading of the complete text does not warrant. Christ calling Peter Satan had nothing to do with Peter’s use of violence in the garden.

3. You point out that, “Jesus never struck or hit people to train them. When he was angry at the money changers in the temple he upturned tables and whipped the Oxen….NOT HIS PEOPLE! (Jn 2:15)”

I have two responses to this.

First of all, the specific commands of the use of the rod that I referenced above (Prov. 13:24, 22:15, 23:13-14) all refer directly to children, specifically sons. I do not believe that Biblical discipline involves adults going around and using the rod on other adults. On the contrary, I think that Matthew 18 clearly lays out how we are to handle those who sin against us.

Secondly, Christ did not do several things that Christians the world over find acceptable. He did not marry nor did he have children. Yet, I do not believe that you would argue that commands to marry and have children (and all the laws pertaining to those things) have now been abolished because Christ did not do them.

4. You say that, the rod is meant metaphorically as shepherd’s staff and that a shepherd would not beat his sheep.

I’m not going to claim that I know what a shepherd back in the days before Christ did or did not do with his staff.

One of the basic, most generally accepted principles of interpreting scripture is to take the most obvious meaning of a passage first. A metaphorical interpretation violates that principle.

If this is metaphorical, God’s promise to us in Proverbs 23:13 “For if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die” makes no sense.

5. You say you can not find comfort in a rod that is used to physically discipline you.

Once again we should interpret unclear passages (Psalm 23 does not say, “do not use the rod for punishment”) to interpret clear. Proverbs 23:13-14 (“Withhold not correction from the child; For if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, And shalt deliver his soul from Sheol.”) and the others seem pretty clear.

Hebrews 12:4-13 pulls this together. First of all it is pointed out that we know that we are sons because we are disciplined and that if we are not disciplined that we are not sons. (Discipline encompasses much more than the use of the rod.) It is obviously comforting to know that we are sons and not illegitimate children. The passage goes on to say,

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

Here it is evident that sometimes painful events and circumstances yield comfort and blessing.

6. You reference the story of the prodigal son.

First of all, this is an adult child. See my response to #3. Second, simply because God commands the use of the rod does not mean that parents should not show mercy, grace and love to our children. (I believe that all of these things are commanded.) Third, the prodigal son was repentant. He had already turned from his sin and was seeking forgiveness there was no need for discipline, the fruit of discipline was already being exhibited.

This is also a parable. Even if none of the above were true, it would violate all the priniples of scripture interpretation to use a parable to deny a direct command from God.

7. You say, “There are many facts shown of the ill effect of children that have been spanked.”

This is not a Biblical argument.

Someone used this exact argument on this blog to support abortion because of all of the “ill effects” that would come to a child who had a mother who didn’t want it. They argued that the child would be better off dead.

When we begin to argue from outside of God’s Word we are in a very dangerous place.

There are two options, either God requires parents to use Biblical discipline (i.e. the rod) or He forbids it. There is no middle ground. I believe that God has you and me in different places for a reason, but we are not both right.

I do not need you to agree with me and I don’t expect you to. I simply feel that it is my obligation, as your sister in Christ, to encourage you to study scripture, to look at passages in their proper context (see your #2 argument above), to use scripture to interpret scripture and to not rely on your own understanding (or that of Mr. Pearl’s or the Popcak’s).

May God bless your home and family.

I have found a book that I already owned but I guess never looked at it totally.

The book is called Parenting with Grace by Gregery and Lisa Popcak.

In this parenting book based on scripture it says that:

We must look at the Old Testament through the prism of the New Testament.

There was a time Peter attempted violence as an act of LOVE on GODs’s behalf (in the garden of Gethsemane)- to “save” Him- Jesus called Peter “Satin”. Christ could not have given a more definitive responce to the use of violence–even when dressed up in the laguage of “Love”.

Jesus never struck or hit people to train them. When he was angry at the money changers in the temple he upturned tables and whipped the Oxen….NOT HIS PEOPLE! (Jn 2:15)

The Rod is meant metaphorically as the shepherds staff. A shepherd would never beat his sheep….they are to presious.

“Thy rod and thy staff shall comfort me” (Ps 23:4) God’s truth do not contradict eath other.
You can not find comfort in a stick or “ROD” you are being hit with.

In the story of The Prodical Son, the father did not beat, hit or even yell at his son went he returned home after spending all his money on drink and women.
The father showed LOVE and open arms as Jesus had showed us.

There are many facts shown of the ill effect of children that have been spanked.

I know there are always going to be those that differ. I did not come to this blog with the intent do differ….we were spankers years ago then became a non- spanking household but did not base the choice on the bible.
The MOPS meeting I had attended stired something in me to find out the truth. I want to do what is right in accordence with the bible.

I know from past blog experience it is hard to tell the tone of a comment or a message. This comment of my findings comes with LOVE. You said you welcome it. I debated wheather to come back and let you know what I found. I am a quiet and shy person that likes peace.

Blessings,
Georgiann

While we can learn and benefit from the wisdom of other men, like Micheal Pearl, the only true, infallible wisdom comes from God.

I suggest that you look first and foremost to the Bible. This is GOD’s instruction to us, not Mr. Pearl’s. (Let me clear, I am not saying that Mr. Pearl’s ideas are wrong, just that to use and agree with his system as the standard is wrong.) In as much and Mr. Pearl’s thoughts and words are in accord with the scripture he is right and helpful. If there is any place that he is inconsistent with scripture, he is wrong. My point is we MUST look to scripture as our standard, not men’s reasoning, thoughts or understanding.

So I urge you again to look to the Bible as your standard. I only referred to a few passages above, God gives us a lot more instruction on child training and use of the rod. Do a word study on “rod” see what it means, what it was used for. This is THE message of my whole blog – CHRISTIANS MUST STOP TRUSTING IN THEIR OWN “WISDOM” AND BEGIN TO TURN TO GOD’S WORD. THEY MUST BEGIN TO HOLD GOD’S WORD AS THEIR STANDARD AND NOTHING ELSE.

The Joy of training by Micheal Pearl

was very helpful in clairifying the issue of spanking.

He does not avocate “spanking” but gentle taps to “train” our children.
He says, parents are to have “training sessions” much like one would have with a dog. Training them to respond to a calm gentle voice….this starts at a very early age about 1 or so.
Training is not to happen in the heat of a misdeed with yelling and spank. But a gentle voice and a light tap.

I do agree with Micheal Pearls biblical training methods.
We pray with our children and talk with them. We have rules and our children obey most of the time.

Many people spank out of frusteration. They are not consitant with what they what from their children and then say the bible says I can rightfully spank or strike at my child.
These folks are not having training sessions with their children.

Part of why I wrote in on this is because I don’t think people should pick and choose from the bible either!
But it does seem confuseing when it says we are not to prevoke our children to anger.
I also was upset that many of the mom’s went away from the MOPS meeting with wrong idea.

Blessings,
Georgiann momma of 6 blessings so far!

PS I’m glad to hear your pregnancy is going well!

Shepherding a Child’s Heart really helped Mark and I understand how we should discipline our children by reaching their hearts. You’re more than welcome to borrow our copy if you’d like to read it.

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask and I’ll try to get to them.

Keep praying, keep asking, keep searching. “If any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all men generously without reproaching and He it will be given to him.” James 1:5

Thank you for taking the time to comment. This is why I write.

One of the salient points that I make in that post is that our family’s standard of behavior, beliefs and actions is God’s Word, both the Old and New Testaments. Any arguments made on this blog should be based on God’s Word, human logic or reason never trump God’s commands. We humans do not get to pick which parts or aspects of God’s Word we will obey. “All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof and for training in righteousness.”

That said, our family strives to discipline our children in accordance with God’s commands. Here are a few of the clear passages that address your specific question.

He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. Proverbs 13:24

Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15

Withhold not correction from the child; For if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, And shalt deliver his soul from Sheol. Proverbs 23:13-14

His commands are clear. I suggest that you study God’s Word for yourself, pray that God will give you wisdom and guidance and be willing to follow what God says not what your own understanding tells you.

We also welcome a Biblical argument for your position. If our family is wrong then we want to bring our thoughts and actions into conformity with God’s Word. In so much as we are being faithful to God and His Word, we are right and God promises blessing. In so much as we are disobeying God and His Word we are wrong and God will punish. So we are always open to a better, more faithful understanding of God and His Word.

Remember the ultimate goal in building this relationship is that it is a picture of our relationship with Christ. We are sinners so it’s an imperfect picture, but a picture none the less. How our children love and submit to us is a picture, an indication of how they will submit to God their Heavenly Father.

I look forward to reading your future post.

Alice, you have wrote about me! We are so much alike. I feel so lost on what to do but do have the desire to have their hearts. I just don’t know how! We have 3 kids, 4, 2 and 8 months.