In no particular order:
1. When God said, “Behold, children are a gift of the Lord…Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them (Psalm 127)”, we believe He meant it.
2. World domination.
3. We know what causes it.
4. Over the last several thousand years, children have outperformed both the stock market AND gold in ROI.
5. We believe that God’s plan is better than ours.
6. People think that we are patient “super parents.” (insert maniacal laughter)
7. We want to leave a lasting legacy.
8. Our kids are cute!
9. We don’t want to have all of our “investments” in the stock market.
10. In a world that views children as an inconvenience or punishment (Obama said he wouldn’t want his daughters “punished with a baby”) we think someone should stand up and say, we welcome children and believe that they are precious and valuable.
Edited to add: I’ve had some commenters call into question whether or not Obama said this, suggest that I am misrepresenting his meaning or not including the whole context. So I decided to include his whole quote,
Look, I’ve got two daughters, 9 year old, um, 9 years old and 6 years old. I’m gonna teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake I don’t want them punished with a baby .
and a link so you can watch and hear him say it with even more context.
11. We love late night snuggles, running two year olds, laughing at the table, crayon drawings, and silly songs.
12. Division of labor.
13. We still get to play on the playground.
You may read more about how much fun we have with our large family by visiting the Raising Olives homepage.
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Amen and amen!! You could also add that you are doing your part to support Social Security in the future!! No children means that no one is paying into social security in the future. Of course, we no that our security is not in any government entity!!
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I love it! And I agree with every single one. And seriously did Obama say that? That’s awful. How about teaching them abstinence before marriage instead of acting like it’s something done to them?
Anyways, I especially like #6. It’s funny what people think just because I have more than 2 kids.
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Hear!! Hear!! My hubby and I totally agree but then again I guess that is what makes our two families friends!! And what’s wrong with knowing what causes it…ok I won’t go there. We all just LOVE being married and having a house full of kids!! Poor Obama and Poor Mrs. Obama…poor poor poor pitiful shallow creatures. We all know that one day even they will BOW AT THE KING’S FEET! whether they want to or not!! Lori
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You are welcome to use my comment. The VF affliate email arrived either on Tues or Wed.
One of my friends just called a little while ago and mentioned how much she was enjoying your blog. Your laundry posts have been quite freeing for her!!
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I love those reasons! Love number 2 (and when the house is messy number 12 always comse into play in our house)
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Just found your blog and look forward to reading more.
We had 10 bio. children, and thought we were “done”. But, last spring we brought home 3 siblings from Ghana.
We are also a Jesus loving, homeschooling, family.
Laurel
mama of 13
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Found you through From The Trenches of Motherhood. I adore your family and love that you have a large family! We’re “cooking” baby #3 right now and we planned on having 7 children before we got married. Now we don’t really have a set number. Whatever God gives us we will gladly help raise for Him! Beautiful family you have!
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Obama did not claim children for your beautiful, stable family would be a punishment.
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Kimberly Reply:
April 5th, 2009 at 7:47 am
Amy you are right. He wasn’t saying that wanted children in stable families are a punishment, but he did say that children are a punishment if the parent/mother decides that they have “more important” plans for their life. Hence the abortion mentality in our culture. We believe that each and every child created by God, either born or unborn, is a special and precious blessing and that by opening our arms to as many as God will give us we are helping to fight that culture of death.
Thank you for voicing your opinion in such a gracious manner!
Blessings,
Kimberly
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How I’m looking forward to reading more of your blogs, thanks for visiting mine a few days back.
I found another few thoughts posted later on http://www.Titus2.com at Mom’s Corner, that were very motivating for me! Thanks for your encouraging site too, & again, I’m looking forward to reading more & getting to know the Olives- Laura
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Whether or not President Obama actually said that, a better response would be to pray for him and his family, as we all should be doing for him and our country anyway, rather than calling him and his family “poor poor poor pitiful shallow creatures.”
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Kimberly Reply:
April 21st, 2009 at 11:42 am
Suzannah,
If you doubt that President Obama said that, you may watch and listen to him actually saying it on YouTube, or simply Google those word’s in quotes for more discussion about his statement.
My response is to pray for him, his family and our country, to welcome onto the earth ALL the children that God creates AND to fight for the lives of the innocent. I didn’t call him a poor, pitiful, shallow creature, although I do pity him because he is a man who is bringing judgment on himself and on our nation through his policies on abortion.
Blessings,
Kimberly
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LOVE IT!! i use these same reasons and we only have four kiddos!
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hi kimberly, i had to come and get my love and grace “fix” for the day! i would love to be neighbors with you-so much i would learn from you. i hope you have a wonderful day! much love and many blessings, angelia
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I recently had an old friend tell me how refreshing it was to hear me praising and loving on my husband and children… it’s just my way of praising God for all the blessings He has given me! I love seeing your love and praise for your family too! Thank you!!!
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I like your idea but Presidnet Obama did not say that children were a punishment. The context of the statement had to do with his daughter being unmarried, young, and impregnated by a rapist and whether or not she had the choice to terminate a hypothetical pregnancy in those circumstances. If one of your adolescent girls is ever raped and impregnated, you may have to face that scenario.
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Raising Olives Reply:
August 16th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Logic,
First of all you have your facts wrong. Here is Obama’s full quote, “Look, I’ve got two daughters, 9 year old, um, 9 years old and 6 years old. I’m gonna teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake I don’t want them punished with a baby .” He does not say anything about rape. The context is abstinence education and STD’s, no rape. I suggest that you listen and watch him say it before you misrepresent the facts.
Second, if one of my young girls were raped and impregnated, that baby would be welcome in our home, what an amazing blessing to receive the gift of a child in the midst of a horrible, nearly unimaginable time. I do not condone murder even in difficult circumstances and am appalled that some people do.
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Well, today is my first time visiting your blog and I am enjoying it! I am a bit jealous of you families with a lot of kids. I have two beautiful kids, I only homeschooled for 1 year (just didn’t work well for our family in a 730sqft house) but now we pay a good deal of money to our church’s private school and I love it! I often wonder if we will give homeschooling a try once again in the future?
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Applauding you as a mother and courageous truth-teller!
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Raising Olives Reply:
August 19th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Mama Bird,
Thanks for your kind encouragement.
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I am new to reading your blog but have really enjoyed it so far. Thanks for sharing positive things about large families. I am a mother to six wonderful kids!
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I love this! We stopped at three children and now that we are through having children, my husband and I wish we could have more. It is unfortunate that our culture is more obsessed with being financially successful than they are with creating heritage and true meaning in life. God bless!
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I like your site but you’re killing me with that Obama line. He’s saying girls shouldn’t be forced to have babies when they don’t want to, not because babies = bad, but because babies raised by mothers who don’t want them = bad. Abortion is a no-win debate. Abortion is gross. But babies raised by mothers who don’t want them is also gross. The only solution to the no-win question is prevention. Prevention (whatever the form) of unwanted pregnancy is better than the trouble that comes after.
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Raising Olives Reply:
August 31st, 2009 at 7:26 am
Axe,
Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment and I’m glad that you like my site. Sorry for the torture that I’m putting you through with this Obama line.
I think that your comment actually makes my point. I’m not saying that any one would say that baby = bad and I’m also not arguing that Obama would say or believes that all children are a punishment. I am saying that the basic attitude toward children in our country is that, while they are nice and cute they are a huge inconvenience.
Most people think that a baby is a blessing if:
1. The parents aren’t newly weds, because they want some time to get to know each other and get settled before they have to deal with a baby.
2. It is the mothers first or second child. (Possibly third if the first two children are the same gender.)
3. The parents have “good” jobs, a nice home, nice cars and any other material things that are considered important.
4. The parents are finished with all of the schooling that they want.
5. The baby won’t “mess up” any travel or career plans.
Etc. etc. etc.
My point with Obama’s line is that he believes, in certain situations, exactly what he says above, that babies can be a punishment. Our family’s view is that while babies can certainly be conceived by sinful actions, they are a testimony to God’s grace and mercy and are a blessing from Him.
One other point that I would like to make. You mentioned that babies being raised by mothers who don’t want them is “gross”. Obama’s (and many other people’s) “solution” to this is to kill the child. (Another a demonstration that children are not highly valued.) I would suggest that there is a more humane solution, one that illustrates that we view children as priceless gifts: Adoption. Our family strongly supports adoption and would love to be able to adopt a child and we know many other families who feel the same.
Gen. 17:20 “As for Ishmael, Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly…”
Gen. 22:17-18 In blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore…”
Gen.24:60 They blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, be thou the mother of thousands and of millions.”
Deut. 28:63 “…the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you.”
Job 42:12-15 “So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning…he had seven sons and three daughters.”
Psalm 107:38 “He blesses them also, so that they are multiplied greatly.”
Psalm 127:3-5 ” Lo, children are an heritage of the lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.”
Psalm 128 “Blessed is every one that feareth the Lord: that walketh in His ways… Happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee. Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Behold that thus shall the man be blessed the feareth the Lord.”
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Amen! Amen! Amen! to all of the above.
Abortion is ALWAYS the wrong “choice”. Always.
What Obama said and meant is VERY clear. There’s no misunderstanding what he meant. He meant that IF his daughters made the wrong choice and got pregnant by mistake, that they should not be punished with a baby. Meaning, they should have the option to abort (kill) that child. I have teenagers, and I never in a million years would ever tell them that! I would never sit them down and tell them, “Listen, I know we’ve raised you with strong moral values, but I just want you to know that IF you make a mistake and find yourself pregnant…well, just know that your father and I believe you should not have to be punished with a baby.” That is clearnly saying that babies are punishment. They are not! They are little humans, little souls, who are created by God, and are no less important than you or me! Just smaller, LOL.
I am the mommy of nine blessings,ages 18 down to 13 months, and I have been challenged so many times about my stance on abortion.
“Well, what if YOU were raped? wouldn’t you have an abotion? Don’t you think women should have that choice?”
My answer: If I was raped and a child were conceived, I would not abort. The child is innocent. I do not have the right to kill anybody. Period. And, not only that, but no matter how it was created, he or she would still be MY flesh and blood. Abortion? How can two wrongs make it right? It can’t. Bad things happen, this is very true, and we cannot always prevent bad things from happening to us. Rape is an awful crime. But we can turn a bad thing into something positive. If I found that I was too emotionally distraugt to keep the baby, I absolutely would give that baby up for adoption. He or she would be a blessing to a couple that might have been praying for a child. Everyone has the right to life. Even those conceived in rape. They are no less human than you or me.
That has always been my answer to that one.
“What if during your ultrasound you found out the baby was terribly deformed, or it wouldn’t live for very long once it was born? Wouldn’t you then have an abortion?”
My answer: Since when did God give ME the power to decide who has the right to live or not? If my unborn baby was discovered to have an underdeveloped brain, for example, and I was told he/she would only live maybe a couple hours after birth… well, then my baby would know LOVE for those few precious hours. I would bond with and love that baby while I had him/her… including during my months of pregnancy. I would not KILL the baby myself through abortion. Gosh, how mothers can do that is beyond me. (I don’t condemn those who do, but rather feel so, so sorry for them. I really believe that abortoin does so much hard to a woman’s emotional state, even years afterwards. It is simply not natural for mothers to kill their babies. It goes against our instinct to protect.)
“Oh, but that would be so hard emotionally for the mother, carrying a pregnancy to term knowing that she won’t be bringing a child home.”
Yes, it would be terribly sad. But to abort that child’s life at 9 weeks, 12 weeks gestation just because he or she is not perfect?How is that better than carrying it to term and getting the chance to look in that baby’s eyes, even if only for an hour or two, to kiss those soft cheeks, to say good-bye? To kill the baby in utero is like saying that that little life has no value! And how sad is that! Every life has value! I say, let the baby die in his/her own time. It might be hard on me to say good-bye, but it’s not about me. You can’t always run away from hard things in life. Sometimes we find surprise blessings from our trials in life. Nope, I would carry to term no matter what. Always.
I get accused of being able to SAY this only because I haven’t been there myself. While it’s true I haven’t had these experiences myself, I still know who I am and what things I am capable of doing. And what things I am not!
Anyway, I could go on and on. I am so passionate about this subject. Children are gifts from God. GIFTS!
I just turned 40 and my age doesn’t bother me at all EXCEPT for the fact that I know my child bearing years are coming to an end, and that truly makes me sad. I always say I’m happiest when I have a baby on my hip and one growing in my belly, lol.
Anyway, I love your blog and am enjoying your homeschooling tips and ideas!
God Bless you:)
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just a gentle reminder: you do realize that your King was created by God, the same God who created the Obama family, along with the rest of us? it’s un-christ like to pass judgement, also, not in our job description as followers of Christ.
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Raising Olives Reply:
September 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Jenni,
Hi Jenni. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. I would like to mention just a couple of things.
First of all, since I am a citizen of the U.S., the only King that I have is King Jesus and He was not created by God. He is God. I’m not opening this up for discussion, I’m just telling you what we believe. John 1:1-5 teaches us that “the Word” (Jesus Christ) was in the beginning with God, He is not a created being.
Secondly, you say that it is un-Christ like to pass judgment and that it is not in our job description. Our only measure of Christ-likeness is the Bible which is also our job description and throughout the Bible Christians are given commands that necessitate judgment, in addition to being directly commanded to judge. Here are just a few examples:
In Matthew 7:6 Christians are commanded not to give that which is holy to dogs or cast our pearls before swine. We obviously must judge “dogs” and “swine” in order to obey.
Christians are also commanded not to be unequally yoked together with an unbeliever in 2 Cor. 6:14. We must be able to judge between believers and unbelievers to obey this command and we are told that we can judge a man by his fruit (his actions).
In Matthew 10, Jesus is sending his disciples out and he tells them in verse 11 to search out who is worthy and to allow their (the disciple’s) peace to remain with that house, but if a house was unworthy that they should allow their peace to return to them. Then in verse 14 and 15 He commands them to shake off the dust of their feet in any city that will not hear their words and that that city will be punished more severely than Sodom and Gomorrah.
Christ Himself passed judgment throughout His earthly ministry. He called the Pharisees vipers (Mt. 12:34) and hypocrites and warns His followers time and again not to be like them.
I posted about judging in an un-Christ like manner as opposed to judging with love here.
Thanks again for your comment.
~Kimberly
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Your answers to the commenters who do not believe that Obama could (and did) actually make that comment are very kind and gracious. Would that I was that way also ;D We have 5 children, losing Timothy hours after birth to a chromosome defect we didn’t know about. My nephew (now 24) is a product of date rape. My parents were amazing support for my sister and my sister is one of my heroes…she’s a great mom and he is an amazing young man.
I find Obama’s attitude and demeanor very troubling and disturbing. Material goods are not all there is, but he and his wife seem to be incapable of realizing that. They both made it as far as they did thru affirmative action, education, etc., yet they want to deny that same opportunity to other children.
And yes, I prefer #2. We love our ‘large’ family and when we see others with larger families, make it a point to compliment them on the children’s behaviour. They are ALWAYS more well-behaved than one child families. You know the ones…the kids that you want to trip as they run screaming thru the aisles at Sam’s.
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What an amazing testimony you have! And I have to say amen to every point you have made about the controversy of abortion and what our President believes that children are a punishment. I have four children (so far) and would welcome any blessing the Lord gave me. Thank you for sharing, and for your website!
In His Grace,
sara
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Just discovered your blog—I love it! I have six children and it is such a blessing to find others who also have large families! Do you ever get those looks from people or even comments? I am curious as to what would be a good response. I want to keep it Christlike but it really bothers me, especially when people make comments within hearing of the children.
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Raising Olives Reply:
October 1st, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Hi Andrea – I just try to smile when people are thoughtless. If possible I like to mention God’s blessing or goodness also, but sometimes a smile is all it takes.
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Thrilled to see that there are still wonderful people out there, I was beginning to lose faith in humanity! Love your ideas, beautiful family.Thank you for doing your part to bring precious little people to this earth.
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Love your site! Your family is beautiful and I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs! I completely agree with you on our Presidents statement about babies. They are a blessing and should be looked upon as such– not only when it is convenient for everyone.
Thank you!
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Raising Olives Reply:
October 18th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Thank you Maryann.
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My daughter and her husband have 6 children, so we too, often get the questions about having so many children. We just smile sweetly and say “well, they both prayed for 3 children, guess we should have prayed more specifically, that it was a total – not each!”. It usually cracks up everyone, and stops the questions.
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I stumbled across your site via your rain gutter bookshelves, and I feel I should applaud you for the admirable job you seem to be doing with your family. I think it’s wonderful that you love children and would welcome that life no matter how it entered into yours. However, I must say that I find your comment that abortion is always wrong a bit disturbing. Admittedly, I’m not fond of the idea, sometimes it really is not an appropriate choice, and in a perfect world it would never be necessary. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and I cannot believe that you would condemn the mother to death for the, (supposed sake,) of the child. There are cases where a woman becomes pregnant but to carry the child to term would be a death sentence either because the physical strain would be too much for her body and would result in her dying, or because the emotional toll of the circumstances of the pregnancy would do her in, (either through rape, an unstable family life, inability to care for the child, social/family judgement brought on them because of various factors, etc…) I don’t see how you can bring a life into this world knowing it will do nothing but suffer. Yes, once here we have the choice to do with our lives what we can- but that child did not choose to be conceived (or did, I suppose, depending on your view point, but if you want to argue that than you can also deal with the fact that an unborn child may or may not actually have a spirit/soul at the point when an abortion is performed, etc…) The fact remains that sometimes an abortion is not merely the best choice, it is the only choice. For every mother that regrets having an abortion I am quite positive that there are those who will forever regret that they didn’t have one- and what kind of life is that for a child when they grow up knowing that they are completely and utterly unwanted? Children should be a blessing, not a punishment. While there are those who can survive a rape and raise the child loving it, there are those who will never be able to forgive the attacker and will never be able to look that child in the eyes (and putting the child up for adoption promises absolutely nothing, I’m afraid). This is not a judgement on the mother or her spirituality or whatever, it means only that they have different ways of surviving that horror and helplessness.
If you want to do something about the rate of abortion than you need to change the fabric of society- make this a place where the idea of raping someone is so utterly abhorrent no one would dare; put supports in place that mean the woman isn’t blamed for what happened; improve access to, and education about, contraceptives; improve supports for youth who are facing becoming parents; provide competent sex-education in schools- neither the abstinence-only nonsense or the STI scare tactics. It can be done, but only if people pull themselves together and get out of the ‘holier-than-thou’ or indifferent states that seem to permeate western society.
When you get right down to it, everyone is doing the best to live the way they believe they should based on the education they’ve received and the experiences they’ve lived through. What is best for one isn’t necessarily best for all and that goes for everything in life; abortion, religion, all of it. I would hope that you would not add further negativity to someone’s life by condemning them for the already exceedingly difficult decision they’ve made- pity, too, can be just as bad. You aren’t them, and all the empathy in the world will never allow you to experience what they’re going through, just as they will never be able to fully comprehend your stand on the issues. If your own child was to choose an abortion I would hope that you would stand by them in the exact same way you would if they were going to raise the child. A painful thing to contemplate, I’m sure, but if you can view the issue in those terms, perhaps you’ll begin to understand it more fully. If you wouldn’t love your own child any less for such a choice, how can you condemn others? And if you would love a child less for that choice… then there is something far more saddening going on in this world than the act of abortion itself.
Blessed be, S.
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Raising Olives Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 1:46 am
S. I’d like to make just a couple of points about your comment. First of all, I never suggested that I would condemn a woman to death. My position in the EXTREMELY rare situation that the life of the mother is actually, physically at risk, is that every effort should be made to protect the life of both the mother and the child.
This is actually not simply a hypothetical situation for me. When my mother was 35 years old and expecting her fifth child, she was diagnosed with cancer. (You may read more of the story here.) The doctors told my parents that if she did not have an abortion and begin treatment for the cancer, that neither my mother nor the child would survive the pregnancy. To make a long story short, my parents refused an abortion. Not only do I have a healthy, happy 25 year old brother who serves in the military and just found out that his wife will be having their first child in June, my mother is still also living and enjoying her grandchildren.
Another thing I want to address is what your standard is for saying that life is valuable. I believe that all human life is valuable because God created it and God says it is (“Thou shalt not murder”). The standard that you set forth in your comment for human life having value is higher than that. You state that it is a bad idea to bring life into the world knowing that it will do nothing but suffer and in this case not only is abortion the BEST choice, it is the ONLY choice. So my question for you is, if life that is full of suffering (even if we could see into the future and KNOW for certain that is what a life would contain) really not worth protecting? So what about people who are currently suffering, would the BEST, the ONLY choice for them be to kill them so they are not condemned to more suffering? You state that adoption is not a guarantee, you’re correct, neither is having a mother who loves and wants you at birth. We have no guarantees. At what point, in your belief system does life become valuable and worthy of protecting? If it is wanted by the mother? What if that changes, is the life once again not worth preserving? What about if the father or grandparents want and love the baby, should we protect the child’s life in that case? At what point does life have value? My position is clear on this point, yours is less so.
The other point I’d like to address is that you believe that we should not judge others because we can’t possibly understand their whole situation and where they are coming from. You said,
Based upon your stated standard, we should not have any prison or penal system and neither should we have any rich. Who are we to judge, condemn or reward another’s actions whether they are good or bad?
By your standard you have no basis for stating that the idea of raping someone should be utterly abhorrent, although you do just that in the previous paragraph. You also have no basis for condemning the rapist, thief or murderer.
Now you apply this directly to the fact that you believe that I should stand by my child if she chose an abortion. First, let me make it clear that if one of my children chose an abortion I would not love them any less. My goal is that my love for my children is defined by God’s Word and is not dependent on their actions. Just as Christ loves me in spite of who and what I am, so my goal is to love my children in that same manner. Just as Christ has forgiven my sins, so I would choose to forgive my child.
However, just as I would not stand beside and support my child if she chose to murder your child, so I would not stand beside and support her if she murdered her own.
I appreciate your respectful tone in taking the time to express your point of view.
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Katrina Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Wow — the way you put together your words is amazing to me. I love, love, love this response and agree with it completely!!
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S. Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment, and to express my happiness that what could have been a tremendous tragedy for your family instead ended so well.
In reading your response and re-reading my original comment it became clear that I had indeed been a little vague on my stance and, while trying to be as gentle and coherent as possible, had actually failed to include the core of my position.
The main argument against abortion is generally that it is murder. However, in order for it to be murder that which is destroyed has to be alive. From my understanding and information on the subject, both from a medical as well as a religious/spiritual viewpoint (across a number of religions including Christianity), an abortion when it is performed (certainly in the earlier stages, although I will admit that this line blurs a little when you get to the end of the medically allowable timeline,) what takes place is not an ending of life, as is argued in the pro-life movement, but the removal of the potential for life. This distinction is important- you would not consider an almond to be a living entity, but the sprout, should that seed be given the chance, would be considered alive. A sperm and an egg are not living entities on their own- until development has progress to a point where the embryo is an entity separate from the mother (not born, but having brain function, heartbeat, a soul, …) I would not consider it to be alive as merits that distinction. What appals me far more is the wanton destruction of life that takes place every day (war, murder for food, etc…)- there is no suffering to be had by the nonliving. In this case an abortion is allowable as it does not kill- intentionally bringing life into a knowingly abhorrent situation is far more revolting. Once here there are not guarantees, and I’ve never argued otherwise; that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a responsibility regarding the life we choose to bring into this world, (and it is, indeed, a choice: free-will is something our species has). Far better not to do it, and to remove the potential, than to leave it too late and be a party to torture. We are only energy- remove the potential in one area and it will find an outlet somewhere else- hopefully one that proves to be far more positive.
My point about judgement and people doing the best they can was not to condone rape or murder, but to make clear that people are not intentionally destructive in many cases but are simply working with what they’ve been given, meaning that to label them as being wantonly out of line is not necessarily correct.
On this, I think we will have to agree to disagree- however, to know that you allow for the situations where it is indeed by all accounts the only option (the certain, or near certain, death of the mother) leaves me far more heartened by the state of the world and the reasonableness of humanity.
Good wishes for you and your family,
S.
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Raising Olives Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I will address the majority of your response when I have a little more time. However, I wanted to clear something up immediately. I do not condone abortion in any circumstances. Abortion is killing an innocent child in the mother’s womb and I do not support or condone that any more that I would support or condone killing an innocent 5 year old child.
My position, when the life of the mother is at risk, is that medical professionals should seek to save both the mother and the child, in much the same way that medical personnel would seek to save the lives of all victims of a multi-victim accident.
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Katrina Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
The tiny heart starts beating 24 days after conception. Many women don’t even realize they are pregnant at that time. Most abortions take place at the 5-12 week mark, once that heart is beating strongly. A beating heart = LIFE
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Raising Olives Reply:
November 19th, 2009 at 6:53 am
I wanted to address your argument on whether an abortion is ending a life. You say,
In this aspect we agree. In order for abortion to be murder it must involve ending a human life.
You state that according to your understanding,
and
(Actually, both the egg and the sperm are scientifically living entities.)
I’d like to start with your definition of life. I think it’s a good one, in that if a human meets your definition it is CERTAINLY, UNQUESTIONABLY and UNDENIABLY alive. Your definition is also legally defensible apart from the presence of a soul. This is the definition used in medicine. A person can not be declared “dead” so long as they have both a spontaneous heartbeat and brain function. Both of these are measurable and defendable.
As early as 21 days after conception a baby’s heart begins to beat it’s own blood type, often different from it’s mother’s. (Moore & Persaud, The Developing Human, p.310; Nilsson & Hamberger, A Child is Born, p.86; Rugh & Shettles, From Conception to Birth, p.217). By the time a woman is 6 weeks pregnant we can visualize this heart beat via ultrasound. When I was just over 6 weeks pregnant with my current pregnancy, I saw my child’s heart beating.
By 40 days after conception brain waves can be detected and read on an EEG (Dr. H. Hamlin, Life or Death by EEG, JAMA, Oct.12, 1964, p.113.) This doesn’t mean that they aren’t present previous to this, but by this point we can detect and read them.
By the time a baby/embryo is 6 weeks gestation it meets the generally accepted medical requirements for human life and even the measurable aspects of what you say you would consider life. So by your argument that “in order for it to be murder that which is destroyed has to be alive” and by all measurable aspects of your definition “not born, but having brain function, heartbeat, a soul,” any abortion taking place after 6 weeks is murder.
Now let’s speak about soul/spirit. In Luke 1:41 it is recorded that when Elizabeth heard the sound of Mary’s (the mother of our Lord) voice the babe (John the Baptist) lept in her womb and in verse 44 we have Elizabeth’s spirit filled explanation that her baby “leaped in my womb for joy”. John, while still unborn, experienced and expressed joy. Psalm 139:13 says, “For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother’s womb.” God is concerned and in control of life even while in it’s mother’s womb. While there is no way for us to measure when the spirit or soul enters into a child, it is Biblically evident in these and many other passages that the soul/spirit enters before birth. For us to put an arbitrary time on exactly when that occurs is simply that, arbitrary. You could say the spirit enters with the first breath and someone else could argue that the spirit doesn’t enter until the child has demonstrable rational thought. If we allow this to be a requirement for the definition of life, none of us could PROVE that we are alive and therefore there could be no definitive, legal protection of “life”.
All of this said, the generally accepted definition of life is much broader than merely a heart beat and brain function. Most beginning biology textbooks give several “characteristics of life”, being made of one or more cells, capable of reproduction, responding to the environment, adapting and changing, requiring a source of energy, and growing and/or developing. A human fertilized egg meets all of these requirements and is human (obviously). It is a completely separate and genetically distinct individual. So from the moment of fertilization this is definable, human life.
If you truly believe, as you state that you do, that abortion is a neutral action, merely the “removal of the potential for life”. Then why say,
If abortion were morally neutral there would be no need to be less than fond of the idea, no need to try to limit it, no need to “change the fabric of society” so that abortion would no longer be necessary and no reason that abortion should not exist in a perfect world.
One last point about judgment. You seem to suggest that I’m judging people’s motives. You say, “that people are not intentianally destructive in many cases”. True. I can’t know a person’s motives and I don’t claim to. I know that when I sin I don’t often set out to be destructive, but whether I am being intentionally destructive or unintentionally destructive does not change the fact that I am destructive. It is not loving to support anyone in destructive, sinful behavior. Our only hope for salvation, for a right relationship with Christ is recognizing and turning from our sin. For us to try to hide or camouflage another person’s sin or to attempt to support them in their sinful behavior is hindering them from seeking the only true source of salvation from their destruction.
Repentance is difficult and sorrowful, but it is the only hope that we sinners have of salvation and eternal life.
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hello sister, how very gracious i find your responses-and like the other sister above, how i wish that i was that gracious. i guess that comes with being prayed up, huh?
i was an unmarried 21 yr old when i got pregnant with my daughter, now age 23. my mother thought this was the most awful thing that i could have EVER done to her-it was implied that the only reason i had done this was for the sole purpose of embarrassing her-and she was relentless in her aggressive opinion of making me get an abortion.
for me, it was NEVER an option-i was immediately shocked and repulsed by the idea-i had already repented of my sin of pre-marital sex, but when you play, you must pay the piper.
there was NEVER any question in my mind what i would do-i was pregnant, and like you’ve said, the child was innocent-and like the Bible says, “BEFORE I WAS FORMED IN THE WOMB, YOU KNEW ME”.
i agree with you sister-there was no way that i could have made any other decision.
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Raising Olives Reply:
November 19th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Thank you for your kindness and being willing to share your story.
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I’m not pro-choice. I do believe that adoption is always better then abortion, however…I do believe that if the woman won’t consider adoption and the only two options are abortion or raise the baby herself, sometimes the baby is way better off dead (in heaven) then living with a cruel horrible monster of a mother. I know of one such mother who has one living child and has had 5 abortions. I tried and tried and tried to get her to give the first aborted baby up for adoption. I offered to take it myself, but she refused. In her situation, I have no doubt all the babies she had killed are better off.
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Raising Olives Reply:
November 20th, 2009 at 7:37 am
This comment really amazes me.
It really makes no difference whether you or I or anyone else believes that a person would be better off dead. Life is valuable, not because it is happy, not because you don’t have a “cruel, horrible monster of a mother” and not because you don’t live in poverty or aren’t born in the midst of famine. Human life is valuable and must be protected because God says so.
I find your assertion to be astonishingly arrogant, you claim that you “know” what was best for those aborted children. You have no way of knowing what the future holds and no way to determine what God’s plan is for any person’s life. Many godly and wonderful people have come from a background of tragedy and suffering.
A child, “with a cruel horrible monster of a mother”, living in a developed country will, most likely, never even begin to understand the depth of suffering that is common for children born in countries where starvation, genocide and child and group rape are rampant. By your standard, those performing the genocide are doing the right thing, because the people they kill are “better off” than the ones who survive and suffer through the horror. By your standard you should support military action to those nations, not to solve the problems, but to put more people out of their misery.
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mama of 3+ Reply:
November 20th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I wouldn’t go as far as saying genocide puts people out of their misery but I stand by my statement that these babies are better off dead. To just let God “handle it” seems selfish to me when He has given us the means to make some suffering end. I’ve heard of mothers being applauded for letting their terminally ill baby to be born. How is that right?! That is the ultimate selfishness! If the baby is guaranteed to have a miserable existence and we have the means to end it’s suffering, how can we allow it to be born into that? That’s cruel! I don’t think God would want that.
Do you believe in capital punishment, most anti-abortion people do? Why is ok to “play God” and kill a criminal but not ok to put an innocent baby out of it’s misery and send it to Heaven?
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poppopto20 Reply:
November 20th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Wow! Where do I begin?
First I would ask why you wouldn’t go so far as to say that genocide puts people out of their misery? If killing an unborn child is preferable to subjecting him to potential hardship why is it not preferable to killing those who are actually suffering real hardship? The principle of killing those who may or do endure hardship is the underlying principle that supports euthanasia, infanticide and genocide. Please note that I am not saying that you do support those evils. I am saying that you have no reason not to support them based on the presupposition that you state for preferring abortion to being raised in a bad home. In the final analysis the principle upon which you make your determination is your preference.
Your position also presupposes that you have an infallible understanding of what the future holds. You cannot possibly know what God may do in the life of the family involved or the child born into that family. Yet you are ready to encourage the killing of an unborn child.
As for your objection to parents letting their terminally ill child be born you would applaud those who would put the terminally ill child to death. Do I hear your applause for executing those suffering terminal illness who are already born? If not, why not? You than replace God’s revealed will with your own preference. The sixth commandment expressly forbids taking innocent life. Is terminal illness a crime that deserves the death penalty. God says no. You imply that God says yes.
Finally you fail to notice a vital distinction between the taking of innocent life and taking the life of those guilty of crimes that God says warrant the death penalty. Christians are perfectly consistent in opposing abortion and supporting the death penalty when the Bible’s requirements for justice are met. A child in the womb has done nothing to warrant execution by a lawfully constituted authority. God requires the life of those who commit crimes worthy of the death penalty. You seem to want to reverse God’s order. It’s good to kill the innocent (in some cases) but it’s bad to kill those worthy of death.
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mama of 3+ Reply:
November 21st, 2009 at 9:34 am
The purpose of genocide is not to put people out of their misery. It’s purpose is to make a certain religion or race extinct. That’s why I would not support it.
I understand your main point is that it’s up to God what happens to human life? Do you believe in any medical intervention? Human invented medicine could go against God based on your argument that we don’t know what the future holds for us. I do believe in medical intervention. I also do believe in euthanasia. I feel that if God gave us the means to end suffering in a terminal ill patient, why not use it? I think euthanasia is just a more extreme form of medical intervention. That’s again where I’m at with aborting an innocent baby who’s guaranteed a miserable life of suffering.
Ofcourse an innocent baby is more important to me than a death row criminal. That’s exactly why I wouldn’t want that innocent baby to suffer! The baby would be in Heaven! Why let it be born knowing all the hardships it will suffer and knowing it will die soon after birth anyway. I think it’s selfish to let it be born into that when God gave us the means to end it’s suffering!
Are we not more important than animals? Nobody would let an animal suffer and just wait to die, why would we put a baby through that?!
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angelia Reply:
November 21st, 2009 at 10:17 am
if you dont like what kimberly has on her page, you don’t have to visit-thats the best way to keep from arguing
Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:49 am
Mama of 3+ –
God, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the creator and giver of ALL life, gives us, His created beings a command in Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not murder.” The main point, in the discussion of abortion, of any who love and fear God is that God tells us it is wrong to take innocent life. Your response to this absolute standard given to us in God’s holy, inspired and infallible Word? You condemn God Himself calling His standard “selfish”. Your reason, your authority for the condemnation of the one who created you, gave you life and blessed you with children is that it seems so to you.
You have set yourself up as an idol. The only standard by which you judge “right” and “wrong”, “good” and “evil” are your thoughts, feelings or beliefs. You have given no basis for those thoughts, feelings or beliefs beyond your own fallible intellect that was created and given to you by God and yet with it you condemn God and disregard His clear commands. Not once in your arguments for the death of the innocent have you appealed to any authority higher than yourself.
In my post “Disagreeing with Love” I lay out the standard for discussions on this site:
* The Bible, both the Old and New Testaments is God’s inspired Word and as such is the standard by which we judge every aspect of our lives. Human logic or “practicality” does not trump God’s Word, ever.
* The Bible speaks to every area of our lives and is sufficient for every problem that we face.
Because you have exalted your opinion and your reason above God and His Word, there is no point in carrying this discussion any further.
For others who may be reading this I’d like to point out a couple other assumptions that mama of 3+ makes that have no authority, no basis outside of her mind.
First, she says repeatedly that if you kill a baby it will be in heaven. God, however, gives no such guarantee.
While it is completely possible and likely that God has mercy and compassion on some aborted infants and they are ushered directly into the presence of God, and while it is reasonable that Christians who loose children should have confidence that God will be faithful to His promise to be a God to us and to our children after us, God does not guarantee that children of unbelievers will go to heaven. (Remember, I’m not saying that they don’t. I’m simply saying that this is an assumption, God does not promise heaven to unborn children.)
Because a Christan opposes using medical intervention to kill an innocent person does not mean that they would oppose medical intervention for the opposite purpose, that is absurd. On the contrary, Christians encourage the lawful use of medical intervention to preserve, prolong and/or improve life for exactly the same reasons that we oppose the use of medical intervention for the purpose of killing of innocent life. God is a lover of life and as His people we also love life. That is precisely my point in “Reason #10″ above.
one thing that i did forget to tell you-other than coming to know the Lord Jesus as my personal Savior at the age of 27, my daughter has been the best blessing He has ever bestowed upon me. i have to say that I HAVE NEVER REGRETTED having her, and once my mother realized and accepted that she wasn’t going to be able to change my mind, she came around, and once she held my daughter for the first time, right up until she passed away 2 years ago, she thought samantha hung the moon.
other than knowing the Lord, my children are absolutely the best thing that has ever come into my life. you could not pay me enough money to go back in time and change a thing. much love sister, angelia
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What a great site! I am new at ‘blogging’ and your site kinda distracted me from other things; HAHA! like cooking! My husband is pretty great too and didn’t complain.
I love the reasons for a large family! We have 4 children; I am growing weary of the stares and comments but God has recently given me encouraging words to respond with. And now I have a few more responses, thanks to you
WOW how this page has gone from reasons to have kids to pro-life/pro-abortion amd now to capital punishment(BTW–killing is different than murder if you want to look it up in the dictionary)!
Maybe we need to refocus on why most of us looked at this site; meeting and encouraging one another until our Lord returns. (1 Thes 5:11)
God is truly blessing you. Keep your eyes on Him
God’s love!
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Apparently, I’m an agnostic then because I cannot love a god that may or may not send innocent children (whether aborted or just children of nonbelievers)to hell. I was on the fence anyway, but the more I read the Bible the more I doubt that it’s actually God’s word. I won’t be visiting this site anymore except to use your helpful tips on big family house chores, homeschooling, etc. Thanks for the debate (BTW,I was trying to debate and not argue). All I have in this world is my “fallible” opinion of what is right and wrong and I will continue to do and think what I believe is right and just.
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Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:
November 24th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I agree with you, you do not believe in the God of the Bible, and I appreciate your honesty.
I pray that God will reveal Himself to you and that you will be overwhelmed by His love, mercy and goodness because they are overwhelming. Romans 5:28 “God commendeth His own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” and John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”.
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I just stumbled across your blog…an I LOVE it. I had to see what you were all about…your reasons for a large family are wonderful and inspiring and relevant to even a smaller family. I look forward to reading more.
Holly @ 504 Main
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Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:11 am
Thanks for your encouragement. I look forward to getting to know you better.
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Oh, you’ve made my day! I just happened to find your blog (via MckMama) and I’m again thankful that there are like-minded ladies in this amazing world.
We currently have three children (and are on pregnancy #5) and have always said we’ll take what God blesses us with (although I secretly hope for a baker’s dozen!). Our family and friends are starting to come around to our way of thinking or are, in the very least, realizing that 1) we’re not completely off our rockers and 2) we actually WANT these many small blessings!
Feel free to stop in at our blog as I will certainly be checking yours between homeschool breaks and insomnia moments.
- Kirsten
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Kimberly @ Raising Olives Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:16 am
Congratulations on your newest blessing and thanks!
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